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Talk:Course: Oblivion (episode)
Real or Mimetic Voyager I'm only presuming, but I guess a mimetic symbiont version of the Doctor's EMH wouldn't have been able to integrate with the advanced drone (One). zsingaya 20:50, 3 Jul 2005 (UTC) :Not all the episodes could have been either, but some could have. , along with the likes of , , and must have been the original. But look at , , , and . Those could easily be the Demon-Voyager. Platypus222 21:15, 3 Jul 2005 (UTC) We have no idea if any part of the mimetic Voyager, or indeed the crew, could've existed away from Voyager (IE: shuttlecraft, away-teams). You're correct that many episodes could've been set on the Demon Voyager, but its probable that only was. For example, if was set on the Demon Voyager, there would be no record of Harry's breaking the prime directive on his permenant records on the real Voyager, which there is (probably slowing his promotions and leaving him as Ensign for the whole run of Voyager). I can't see a reason for or against or , but features Tuvok and Tom crash-landing on a planet, perhaps they would've had an injury that could've revealed if they were real or not. zsingaya 06:28, 4 Jul 2005 (UTC) :: I just noticed this... does indicate the crew could survive beyond the ship. About 14 minutes in, as everything else decays, Neelix reports that everything he's scavenged from away missions and outside sources remains unaffected. --Aurelius Kirk 18:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC) ::: I don't see what that has to do with the crew.. the crew and the ship were made of the same bio-mimetic material -- so it makes sense that, as the crew and ship both disintegrate, anything they'd picked up since leaving Demon Planet wouldn't be affected. So Neelix's report only confirms that foreign objects that are not the ship or crew will survive. -- Captain M.K. Barteltalk 19:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC) ::I didn't emphasize my point (regarding zsingaya's 4 Jul 2005 comment) sufficiently. Referring to unaffected vegetables, Neelix says "I harvested them on an away mission last week". Meaning, by transporter or shuttle, mimetic-crew could exist outside of Voyager. --Aurelius Kirk 19:28, 23 February 2006 (UTC) :::: must have been the original, just look at Stardate. ::::: was definitely on the original Voyager. It is referred to in episode, .-- 02:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC) :::::: All episodes between Thirty days and Course Oblivion must have taken place on the "original" Voyager, cause Tom Paris shows up as an ensign and not a lt. jr. grade. Greetings Airdate I asume that the airdate 1993 is incorrect, on the account that the precious episode was aired in 1999. I changed it in 1999. -- Q 17:03, 23 Jul 2005 (UTC) Background Info NPOV? I personally haven't read a thread regarding this ep on other forums where this ep wasn't considered decent, if not good or great. And I've certainly never encountered a fan who said this ep shouldn't be considered canon! And yet the second Background note currently says the exact opposite of what I've seen regarding fan opinion. While, granted, the third background note (imo, weakly, but ymmv) defends the "many fans", I think both the latter two background comments about this ep's decency should be scrapped as NPOV and irelevent. This isn't even like , where the actual producer of the show said the ep in question sucked. Opinions? -- Miranda Jackson (Talk) 23:54, 28 Oct 2005 (UTC) :Personally, I thought was pretty good. Not only was it attempt to "clean up" Voyager's screwed up continuity. But, it brought the crew's character flaws to their logical conclusion (Tom Paris' attitude, Captain Janeway's pigheadedness, etc.). :I think anybody who finds fault with one episode or another has been given another loophole out of canon, the Temporal Cold War. It can render alot of continuity issues and badly written episodes a moot point anyway. I certainly can't think of a better excuse to ignore , or any number of problems in Star Trek.--Mike Nobody 01:45, 29 Oct 2005 (UTC) ::Obviously this is not NPOV, you can't document sources on "many fans" - the writer could be talking about himself and his roommates. Also adjectives like "worst," "well-written," "pointless" and "ridiculous" are clear evidence of opinionated bias, and anyway discussions of relative merits of individual episodes have no place in the body of a supposedly factual article. I personally dislike this episode, but for different reasons than the ones written. Should I include my opinions as well in the main article? Before long the articles would become indistinguishable from message boards, just as muddy and of no use to anyone. If some secondary source has listed this as a particularly unpopular episode it should be neutrally noted in that way. :::Some of the text in the BG info was very inflammatory by nature in fact: :::*Many fans consider this episode to be one of the worst in Voyager s entire run, taking an idea from a well-written, interesting episode, and taking it to pointless and ridiculous lengths. Some of these fans indignantly insist that "Course: Oblivion" is not canon. :::As such, I've removed that sentence, and softened up the line about the character traits, to make it a bit more professional and less like a message board. -- Sulfur 16:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC) ::::Interesting that some of us consider "Course: Oblivion" to be easily among the greatest Voyager episodes ever written, if not the best, as its haunting conclusion is basically that of a Twilight Zone or Outer Limits episode. If fans hate a story that tells a tale no one but the viewers will ever know about, perhaps those fans don't deserve to watch. --ChrisK 07:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Replicators In the episode, replicated items disintegrate. Replicators use energy-to-matter conversion. Why would replicated items, formed from energy rather than a base compound, be composed of biomimetic goo? Retracted - found the answer. Apparently they use molecular resequencing rather than energy-to-matter conversion. Clues left behind I find it odd that after answering a distress call, Voyager was so quick to dismiss the initial scans and move off. Considering they made it out of warp, items that Neelix salvaged should have been lingering in the debris. And while anything mimetic had broken down, it is not that far a stretch to believe that something like say...fingerprints would have survived. It is a small intuitive leap for the crew at that point, given what kinds of connections that have made in the past from even fewer or more obscure clues. :If I remember correctly, we didn't see the mimic-Voyager actually come out of warp. Given the ship's state and the stress put on the hull, I'd suppose that it's possible coming out of warp tore the ship apart, destroying anything 'real' inside. Also, given the... unspecified nature of the 'Silver Blood', it could have had an affect on Sensors. --DrGero49 22:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC) ::I watched this episode earlier and while it's not said on screen the ship is out of warp the warp core was ejected prior to the ship disintegrating completely. There was enough time between warp core ejection and the last we see of the mimic Voyager for the warp field to collapse. Also the debris on the screen appeared to be nothing but Silver Blood slowly dissolving the rest of the way into molecules. It appears this was simply a continuity goof. --Maestro4k 10:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC) death/destruction please could some one list the episodes in which janeway has died and/or voyager has been destroyed, it might also be good for the article. 10:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC) I agree, some one should list them some where, even if it's not the article. 14:18, 30 December 2008 (UTC) I have added several of her deaths to the alternate timeline section of Starfleet Casualties. I had overlooked this episode, so I will fix that soon. Unless someone else beats me to it. --Kahwless 04:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC) transwarp In the previous episode Dark Frontier, Janeway said that they save 15years of travel by using the Borg trans warp. But how can they explain that the ship is still about a few day of travel from the Demon planet they visit about 9 month ago? according to the clone of Janeway, the mimic-Voyager was about one or two week from their original planet.. :At the beginning of this episode, mimetic Janeway states that because of the new drive, they are only 2 years from Earth. Their new drive doesn't seem to be the same as the Borg Transwarp drive (it doesn't have the green "tunnel effect" as seen in Dark Frontier, Timeless, and Endgame). The new drive is obviously very fast, yet makes the surroundings appear like traveling at normal warp (another bit of "Trek tech"), a week to get to the demon planet on the new drive seems feasible. --The Time Traveller 21:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC) Nitpick :*''A microphone production error occurs in this episode. When the mimetic Tom Paris enters Sickbay to check on B'Elanna's condition, a production crew member's voice can be heard indistinctly in the background, off-set.'' Production Error. – Morder 22:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC) :*I'm just wondering if the wedding really did take place in the mess hall, since the walls do not show any replicators and the lighting fixtures are different, not to mention that the walls of that room are blue while those in the brightly-lit mess hall are white.VicGeorge2K7 20:48, 30 August 2008 (UTC) :The closer you watch this episode the more little inconsistencies you notice, the panels in engineering are different, (although the new drove could account for this) I think the production team had a little fun with the set dressing, once you know what is going on you get it (first time around I assumed Janeway re promoted Tom as a wedding gift) Lt.Lovett 16:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC) :*B'Elanna can be seen to be breathing after dying as Tom tries to resuscitate her. Teaser The teaser was recently changed. this is what it used to be. :With a new warp drive installed that will allow ''Voyager to return home much more quickly and the marriage of Tom and B'Elanna, everything seems to be coming up roses. But, when B'Elanna and the rest of the engineering crew begin to get sick and die, the crew discovers they are not what they appear to be.'' I think that was a much more interesting teaser, and also more accurate. I think the current one liner should be reverted.— Vince47 03:19, 18 February 2009 (UTC) :The original one was kind of long and wordy. Moreover, it is not just the engineering crew that begins to deteriorate and die, but everyone. A good teaser should capture the essence of the episode succinctly I believe, instead of going off on tangents. If you can suggest a way of changing it so it is not so wordy, feel free to change it. – Distantlycharmed 03:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC) ::The original is a bit long. I've changed it to this: :::As ''Voyager crewmembers begin dying, they make a startling discovery about their true identities.'' ::It's a bit more of a "tease" than the one that was there about discovering exactly who they were. Now it reads a bit more like something you'd see in a TV Guide summary. -- sulfur 15:09, 18 February 2009 (UTC) :I dont know. I liked having the biomimetic part in the teaser and that they discover that they are facsimiles.– Distantlycharmed 15:34, 18 February 2009 (UTC) ::The thing is... that's the macguffin of the plot. A teaser is supposed to tease. Not tell us everything that's happening. The original idea was that they would be the lines out of the TV Guide, etc. -- sulfur 15:42, 18 February 2009 (UTC) Dude, there are tons of teasers on MA (or whatever you call the tagline on top...Macguffin?...reminds me of McLovin from Superbad, but naw sorry I know its a plot device :) that tell you "the ending" if you so will and what is happening. Spoilers are not an issue here with respect to plot summaries right? - MA is a reference guide; the point is to be succinct and get the main idea out without going into too much detail. Anyway... – Distantlycharmed 22:47, 18 February 2009 (UTC) :::yeah, you might as well "tease" with "DATAS MOTHER IS TEH ANDROID" --TribbleFurSuit 22:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC) ::My point is... the teaser is intended to be the TV Guide style blurb. If you want the details, you read the summary. -- sulfur 22:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC) I think the current teaser: :As ''Voyager crewmembers begin dying, they make a startling discovery about their true identities.'' is excellent, summing up the basic idea of the episode clearly and succinctly without giving away either of the two big spoilers: the fact that they're the biomimetic crew, and the episode's tragic ending. -- Lysana 16:50, 23 May 2009 (UTC) Removed Removed the following speculation as to why mimetic Chakotay would eat meat since he's a vegetarian. I've left the actual reference, as it is a major plot element(per MA:NIT) but we don't need to speculate about it. Given that they are both mimetic copies, it is reasonable to suggest that Chakotay's dietary choices would have been copied also. However, it is possible that Chaoktay's copy may have given up his dietary practices at some unseen point. Even more likely would be that the chicken was replicated which would remove any moral qualms Chakotay may otherwise have had about eating it. Indeed it has been suggested that vegetarianism has become the norm for humans or at least Starfleet personnel by the late 24th century. ( ) Also removed the following speculation, as the evidence given in this passage would seem to explain itself away. * How many, if any, of the episodes between and "Course: Oblivion" took place on the mimetic Voyager is unknown. While Tuvok and Chakotay were rehashing past events to determine the cause of their ship's degradation, the only event mentioned that was featured in an earlier episode was their visit to the Demon-class planet. Furthermore, no mention of an enhanced warp drive was ever made before "Course: Oblivion", and the mimetic Tom Paris still held the rank of lieutenant junior grade while the original Tom Paris (seen at the end of this episode) had been demoted to the rank of ensign in .--31dot 22:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC) Ensign/Lieutenant The comment about Paris referring to Janeway as sir is correct, as it was said by the real Paris, not the duplicate one.--31dot 00:45, 24 April 2009 (UTC) Chakotay's Vegetarianism I made a note in the section regarding the apparent inconsistency about Chakotay's vegetarianism (in this episode he is seen to eat chicken). On further thought though, I made that change in haste. Has it ever been established, in Trek, how vegetarians and/or vegans think regard replicated food, specifically replicated meat? EDIT: Sorry, forget this - I see it has already been discussed (I didn't read the previous mention as I thought it was furthering the debate about whether whole episodes have taken place on the mimetic Voyager, as opposed to the real one). --I'm confused, I'm a vegetarian and whilst i agree that replicated meat is essentially the ultimate goal of vegetarians everywhere in order to get people to stop killing animals because they cant give up meat. Chakotay implies in unity when told that there is no meat that thats ok due to his vegetarianism. I'm led to believe from this statement that he doesn't believe in eating even meat substitutes (as stupid as that is for a vegetarian considering that they are usually good sources of protein) or that he simply doesn't like the taste. My point is that mimetic copy or not, they are based on the real people, that proper vegetarians would have no problem with fake meat from a replicator except perhaps personal taste and that in this instance Chakotay is suffering from terrible writers syndrome. This also potentially proves Beltrans views that the writers didn't give a damn. --Vegetarian-- How did the Hypospray remain intact? During the scene in sickbay, the mimetic corpse was injected with a catalyst that reacted with the "Silver Blood". Given that the entire ship was composed of this substance, why did the catalyst not react with the hypospray? :I'm not sure, maybe the hypo was replicated, but such a statement would be a nitpick and not suitable for the article.--31dot 21:39, January 25, 2010 (UTC) Not the Mess Hall The are they're in is not the mess hall, in fact, it looks like a redress of the senior officers quarters with the wild walls removed. the area is too wide to be the mess hall and the back wall has "indents" where the senior quarters bathroom/bedroom areas normally are. - 08:36, June 9, 2010 (UTC) Removed nitpickery I removed the following bgnotes: * A continuity error occurs when the mimetic Chakotay arrives in Janeway's quarters for their weekly dinner. She announces that they will be eating "chicken paprikash" (a favorite recipe of her grandmother). Janeway appears to have forgotten that Chakotay is a well-documented vegetarian (as per season 3's ) (Although this could be explained as either the duplicate having changed his eating habits or the chicken's replicated nature negating any issues Chakotay may have about eating it). * A larger continuity error occurs when the real Voyager is within range of the duplicate, due to the fact that several episodes prior, Voyager had used Borg technology to achieve an equivalent of 15 years worth of travel. * Ensign Paris at the end of this episode refers to Captain Janeway as "sir". Janeway prefers to be called "Captain" or "ma'am" in a crunch. ( ) * Captain Janeway ordered that environmental controls be adjusted to simulate the atmosphere of the planet. In , it was stated that they could not safely replicate the atmosphere. the first for being a nitpick which explains itself away, the second for being inaccurate (the duplicate Voyager was using an enhanced warp drive to cover more distance}, the third and fourth for being high nitpickery. -Angry Future Romulan 16:02, December 1, 2010 (UTC) The transwarp took 15 years off their journey, but enhanced-warp put the duplicates within 2 years of earth, so I'm not sure that's the same thing, I think they were alot further than 17 years from ear. I think they really should have been years apart. Also, the duplicates couldn't live in a class-M atmosphere on the real ship, but, if they forgot that they were duplicates, wouldn't they have set environmental controls to inhospitable normal human settings? Lastly, how did they get off the demon class planet? In Demon, a Voyager took off with another crew left on the ground, when and where did they get the ship? With all that said, this was one of the saddest episodes ever, the way they died with no survivors or records left behind, just forgotten. 16:22, November 27, 2011 (UTC)GulTuvoc :They can copy anything they sample by touch, remember? So they learned to mimetically copy the whole ship, including the warp drive, because it had landed on the planet and they had engulfed it in the previous episode. Because their warp drive wasn't built in the usual way, however, they found themselves able to improve it way beyond Starfleet standards. If they are already within 2 years of Earth this means their engines are now so fast that they could plausibly get to almost anywhere before the episode is done. Obviously this means they could also learn over time to mimetically breathe class-M atmosphere -- their skills just improved, plain and simple. This also explains nicely why the real Voyager crew did not foresee any of this happening when they were basically extorted into letting their genetic material to be sampled in 'Demon'. 09:37, June 24, 2012 (UTC) The plot Voyager (unassumingly, both the real ship and the duplicate) had been travelling away from the Class Y planet towards the Alpha Quadrant for 10 months, 11 days. After discovering their true nature, the duplicate Voyager decided to reverse course and return to the Class Y planet. However, we can assume that the real voyager did not reverse course. So, that would put the real Voyager almost a year's travel away from the Class Y planet and the disintegrating duplicate. So, how did the real voyager happen to stumble upon the remains of the duplicates when they should have been thousands of light years away? :Because the plot of the episode was that the duplicate Voyager was using a new, faster warp core. - 05:39, June 21, 2011 (UTC)